The Geek in Review Ep. 131 – Innovation Adoption – The Law Firm Field of Dreams

Marlene Gebauer  0:27

Welcome to The Geek in Review, podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer,

Greg Lambert  0:34

Greg Lambert. Well, Marlene, we have a have some fun this week with a couple of guests, we have Beatrice Seravello, and Brad Blickstein, from Baretz+Brunelle, and they’re going to talk about one of their new surveys, the first of a two part survey. And we have some some real fun because they were very innovative, right? Absolutely. So they base the survey on the movie Field of Dreams, and talk about the adoption of innovation, whether it’s technology, or process improvement at law firms. And so we

Marlene Gebauer  1:10

see you may hear a few new voices

Greg Lambert  1:12

when one may sound just like Kevin Costner.

Marlene Gebauer  1:16

So stick around for that. But now let’s get to this week’s information inspirations.

Greg Lambert  1:25

We’re gonna do something a little bit different this week for information inspiration. In a couple of weeks, you and I are going to be basically co-hosting, I would say a conference that HBR is putting on for the law library community. So I brought in Coleen cable from HBR. And we had forgotten that Colleen and I basically had worked together, she was the Tulsa County law librarian, and I was the law librarian for the Oklahoma Supreme Court back in the 90s and early 2000s. And so we, we reminisce briefly about that. But then we talk more about the upcoming LINKS conference that HBR is putting on so we’ll get to that first. And then when that’s finished, we’ll get right into the interview with Brad and Beatrice.

Greg Lambert  2:24

I brought in an old friend of mine calling cable who’s the director at HBR consulting and we were talking just before we jumped off that, that somehow or another, I forgot that back in like the late 90s, early 2000s. You and I worked together. In Oklahoma, you were the Tulsa law librarian, right. I was the library director for the Oklahoma Supreme Court. So I had like 75 counties and you, also Vinita had Oklahoma County. But we’re not going to talk about old times, we’re going to talk about something that’s coming up, which is HBR is working in the three geeks are helping sponsor the upcoming LINKS conference. So let’s talk about it. Why is HBR coming up with this LINKS conference? What’s it about?

Colleen Cable  3:12

Thanks, Greg. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity. And also thank you for being a part of LINKS, which is the HBR is legal information and knowledge services conference. Really the Why is I’ve been at HBR . Now, almost three years. And just the depth of knowledge. I think that and market intelligence that, you know, I know that HBR has in the legal space, and particularly in law firms. So that depth of knowledge to and background and history and natural extension of that is to the research and information solutions or library space. And how can we leverage that. So really looking to address some of the challenges that are faced by law firm library leadership through that relationships and depth of market intelligence, with law firm leadership. And I’m really excited about the opportunities This is going to be our first year as you as you mentioned, so we’re doing a little sort of test conference to begin with, it’s a half a day. So it starts at one o’clock eastern time on October the 14th. We only have three sessions this first year, but you know, we’re looking for feedback from the attendees. And we’ll be doing some surveying during the event to just make sure that if we decide to do more, you know, understanding what’s desired as far as topics and length and dates and all that kind of stuff.

Greg Lambert  4:40

Sounds good. Well, I know the first session is the leadership view into 2022. Yeah, please let us be at least most of the way out of this pandemic, but I know so. So what are you going to cover in the first session? Yeah, well,

Colleen Cable  4:55

let me give you a little background on that, Greg, because I don’t know if you remember this, and I was really Looking up to try to see so the very first PLLIP summit that I went to, which was the first one, someone from the and I’m going to say this name wrong. So, you know this Zheng Hauser group, which is another is a consulting firm for law firm leaders. I think it was Peters and Hauser had a presentation. And I was just mesmerized, I could not take notes fast enough. He was really presenting, just as he would to a group of law firm leaders, it was not library focused at all. It was focused on what’s going on in the industry, what are things that you know, the sea levels need to be aware of and know about? To me, it was kind of stepping outside of that echo chamber where we’re always, you know, talking to ourselves or talking about the same topics. I’ve never forgotten that presentation. So I wanted to recreate that experience. And of course, that HBR we have the perfect types of folks to do this. So I approached Nick Quill to come on board, because obviously that’s his world, that’s a space law firm leaders. He’s talking with so many folks about, you know, what are they what keeps them up at night. So it’s really that type of a program. And then we brought in Bobby, because she is really firmly in that innovation space. She is working again, with the CIOs and others to address innovation and getting that perspective and then allowing you and Marlene, I think it’s, you’re going to be the last session of the day, and really take a lot of that and maybe apply it to the information space or help attendees or others kind of think about what does that mean? How can we utilize that information to make decisions or to work with our own leadership in our firms? And that’s really the goal, it’s not to have them telling us, you know, what we should do or shouldn’t do, I think we’ve got that down. And we can do that ourselves. It’s really providing that view that we often don’t get to. And I think what we put in the materials is, you know, ever wanted to be at the table, you know, here’s your opportunity to hear exactly what’s being said to those folks.

Greg Lambert  7:02

Yeah, we’ve used the saying around here, a lot of if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu. So, exactly. It’s better to be at the table. So I know the second session, you’re going to be highlighting the 2021 bliss survey. Yep. Yeah. For those that don’t know what the bliss survey is, can you give us a quick explainer on that one?

Colleen Cable  7:21

Yeah, so HBR has been doing for about five years a survey in the information library law firm space, three years ago, or so we shifted the focus a little bit to benchmarking. So it’s the benchmarking, which is where the bliss comes from legal information services survey, and really wanted to focus on consistency. So asking the same questions year over year, also different benchmarks that could be applied. This is our biggest year that we’ve had 2021, we had the most responses and survey input. And that is sort of another impetus for the links, we typically do a webinar around the bliss results, kind of give a sneak peek and thought we just wrap it into this conference. And we’re really excited about bliss this year, you know, people might not know we deliver the results via an interactive dashboard that was custom made for HBR by our group here internally, it allows the users to do segmentation. So one of the gaps with a lot of the surveys that are on the market, especially in the law firm, there’s such a big difference between the am law one to 25, in, you know, so on down the line. And so applying the survey results kind of across the board is just not very useful to folks. So we do allow that segmentation. And then one of the things that’ll be new this year is a lot of trending, we built the dashboard last year, so that occupied all our time. So then this year, really did a deep dive into the five years’ worth so where we could with the questions, do the trending. So hopefully, you know, there’s a lot of topics that people are really interested in around budgets, sole provider, staffing, and then part of our hot topic. We do a hot topic each year. And this year’s hot topic is around succession planning, which has become very hot, quite the issue. Yeah. And so we’ve got the CTO from Perkins, Jennifer Bluestein, joining us, and she’s going to be talking about some best practices. And I’m really excited about that, because I think that’s, you know, as you said, it’s kind of a pretty big topic at the moment. Yeah.

Greg Lambert  9:36

And I think with all of the stuff that’s been going on the last year and a half, two years that succession planning has got to rise up to the top of a lot of people’s concerns, especially as we tried to figure out what’s next. As far as how we weren’t going forward. So yeah, so you got Jessica King and Jennifer Bluestein from Perkins Coie and yeah, Cynthia Brown from Littler is going to be there as well. And then, you know, to wrap it all up, Marlene and I are going to kind of like do a synopsis of what we heard and then interact with the people in the audience. So and then after Marlene and I talked then then we just do a little bit of social interaction.

Colleen Cable  10:22

Yeah, so one of the things too, that we wanted to use a new-fangled platform or something other than zoo. Yeah. And so we’re using air meat, which does provide a lot of actual true networking experiences. So it actually looks like little tables, you can go to a table, you can, we’ll have different sizes of tables, so two people or four people or whatever, you can hop in and hop out. There’s even speed networking. So if you like speed dating, and you want to be paired up with someone for a few minutes to have a quick conversation, and then rotate around, we’ll probably have that enabled as well. And that part is just optional, and we hope people want to stick around or just chat with friends or meet new people. You know, we’re happy to provide the platform and excited about those possibilities. If we can emulate some of that in person more casual gathering, that would be great. Alright,

Greg Lambert  11:14

well, I’ll put a link to all of the information on how to register time and place. Yep, cost on this. And I think there’s a little some special with the cost as well.

Colleen Cable  11:25

Yep. So it’s $45. Or if you participated in bliss, it’s only 35. And the proceeds will be going to benefit the AALL, George A Strait Minority Scholarship and Fellowship Fund. So we’re happy to be able to support and give back and yeah, we have, I believe almost 70 attendees at the moment, and that’s those are paid attendees, not just it doesn’t

Greg Lambert  11:53

include me that it does not include you.

Colleen Cable  11:56

That’s right.

Greg Lambert  11:57

Great. Colleen, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us. And tell us more about the LINKS conference.

Colleen Cable  12:04

Excellent. Thank you, we hope to see all of you there.

Marlene Gebauer  12:11

We would like to welcome Brad Blickstein and Beatrice cerebella, archers, and co-heads of Baretz+Brunelle. And we would like to welcome Brad Blickstein and Beatrice Seravello, partners and co-heads of Barrett’s and Brunelle’s new law practice group, Brad and Beatrice. Welcome to The Geek in Review.

Brad Blickstein  12:31

Hi, Greg. Hi, Marlene,

Beatrice Seravello  12:32

thank you for having us.

Marlene Gebauer  12:33

So we brought you both on the show to talk about the new survey you’ve conducted, which asks AmLaw 200, and global 100 law firms about the technology they’re building and the adoption rates in which attorneys are actually using the new tools. But before we get to that, can I get you first to talk about what are you doing with your new law practice and what objectives are there for your team there at B+B.

Brad Blickstein  12:56

So as we all know, and I know this is a common topic on the podcast, the legal industry is evolving. And that increasingly means new legal service delivery models. We’ve shortened for them over practice legal, new legal service delivery models to new law. That just means different ways that law firms and others are providing legal services. So it might be from within a law firm, but differently than the standard, you know, associates do the lion’s share of the work and partners look it over. And it might be by an LSP, or it might be from an offshore lpo or it might apply technology or process. But all of these nontraditional methods of legal service delivery is what we all about in our practice is really helping law firms and others, build those tools, gain adoption of those tools and bring them to market.

Greg Lambert  13:48

Brad and Beatrice, you have cleverly shaped the survey that you’ve done around the great American baseball movie Field of Dreams. And I just want to read the the introduction that you wrote for the survey itself, the results. On the surface Field of Dreams is about baseball. Some say it’s the best baseball movie ever made. Those who agree understand, it’s really a movie that transcends the game. It’s about instinct. It’s about faith. It’s about ambition, and it’s about family. But perhaps most importantly, it’s about the wonderful and mystical things that can happen to those who relentlessly pursue their dreams. So how does this relate to what large law firms are doing around the world when it comes to developing technology and innovation within their organizations?

Beatrice Seravello  14:42

The Field of Dreams comparison was quite obvious to the both of us in all of the working that we’ve done with law firms. The fact remains that law firms have invested a great deal in building great teams in investing in technology. On the surface, they’re responding to the client demand. But they built these things, including incredibly talented teams, who are actually building great things. But most of that which is being built, is never utilized. So it occurred to Brad and I that Oh, my, they’re building it with the expectation. That’s, that’s all it takes. But in fact, it takes a lot, lot more.

Marlene Gebauer  15:32

So you start off with the big issue, you know, law firms know that they need to do something to respond to the increasing pressures brought to them by demands from clients for efficiencies, and competition from alternative legal service providers. law firms were contemplating building tools to help improve efficiencies, and have an advantage over the competition. Somewhere in the halls of the offices, they heard a voice.

Marlene Gebauer  16:02

What motivated you to draw this parallel between Iowa farmer Ray Kinsella and big law firm partners hearing that voice calling them to action?

Brad Blickstein  16:11

Yes, so largely, it’s not the big law firm partners who hear that voice. It’s the people in charge of developing and building and gaining adoption for innovation initiatives, or what we call new law initiatives within the firms. And it’s how be said it is really, right. The belief was, if you build it, they will come. But if you build this cool tool, all that has to happen is your lawyers will see how cool it is whether it’s a tool or a process, or whatever. And they will come and use that tool. But then as we built our practice, over the past couple of years, what we learned is that, just like some of the characters in the movie, you know that it’s really questionable whether or not they will come in many cases, they do not come.

Beatrice Seravello  17:01

And I would add that there is some whispering going on to law firm leadership, because they know they have to do something. So they hear it, but they don’t know how to materialize it. So that’s the whisper. It’s like there is something in their head that is telling them they must do this. But there’s not enough to be able to make what they’re doing materialize.

Greg Lambert  17:26

Just to try and clarify that a little bit. Who’s doing the whispering?

Beatrice Seravello  17:33

Very good question. So I think I think the whispering it comes from a lot of different sources, right? The whispering comes from the clients, we hear from clients all the time, that they want to see things being done differently. They weren’t law to be practiced differently. lawyers have, in fact, responded by investing in teams that are different than the teams we’ve normally seen in firms. And these people have great ideas. And they actually have been brought on board to develop new ideas. And then there’s somewhat of a breakdown from there. So I think the whispering is both in the ears of lawyers, as well as from the people who are on the ground trying to get things done.

Brad Blickstein  18:17

Yeah, it comes from clients. It comes from the innovation teams themselves. It comes from maybe if you have a if sometimes firm leadership is really forward thinking even when the firm itself isn’t necessarily was forward thinking. Greg comes from you and Marlene right, like I mean, you’re every episode of the podcast is a whisper

Greg Lambert  18:40

Yes, listen to the podcast, they will come. Well, they that’s what we tell them. So we tell them right now there’s a couple of things that I think of when it comes to law firms developing their own technology and innovation processes. And again, you say it doesn’t have to be a technology it can be it could be innovation in other ways. You know, the first is that while they may know they need to do something, they typically aren’t set up to be a development shop. They’re not typically set up to be change agency, they do very well at what they do. And so they may hear the voice saying to build something, but typically I would say the the reply you hear a lot comes from the movie and that is all right. That’s what do you want from me?

Brad Blickstein  19:39

Exactly. Yeah. That is that is the classic question that that is how law firm partners and lawyers kind of view this stuff in a lot of ways. Like you know, I’m they’ve heard the whispers, I think, I would say almost every partner we’ve ever talked to at a law firm, sort of has some belief that they should be doing something differently that these innovation teams at their firms are on to something sort of on, you know, very few of them just fully reject that at a hand, where there’s a big disconnect is around exactly what the what the quote is like, you know, what do you want from me? Like, you know, I have some, you know, yeah, that’s all me. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we should definitely practice a lot of different but I’m not, not me, like, I don’t want to, I don’t want to. I think that’s a really funny, quote, it’s really a good one. And, and despite all that, you know, firms are trying a whole bunch of different things,

Greg Lambert  20:35

for the firms that make this decision that they want to change things. And you can kind of point to a handful of firms who are first movers in these types of prospects. So they’ve, you know, plowed their traditional legal operations crops under, and now they’re building something new. So what is it that they’re aspiring to build?

Marlene Gebauer  20:58

So what are they harvesting?

Greg Lambert  20:59

Yeah, what? What are they planting?

Beatrice Seravello  21:02

That’s true. I mean, they’re new look new little delivery service models, it’s either using technology, it is looking at the staffing models for law, it is looking at processes, it’s truncating the practices in such a way that lawyers get to concentrate on practicing law. And the things that they don’t need to be involved in, are being actually taken care of in other ways. And ultimately, the client gets a much better experience.

Brad Blickstein  21:36

We tested we asked about 10 different initiatives. And but you know, they ranged from Tech enabled document drafting, to data analysis, to self-service models, all the way down to use the blockchain. So there’s, there’s a bunch of different, we really try to look at specific initiatives that firms are trying and what we learned is that they’re trying a lot of them. I mean, they’re that we asked about 10 different initiatives, and I believe 80% of our respondent pool has tried at least half of the initiatives that we’re asking about. So if the overall construct here is, if you build it, will they come? They’re building it, right?

Beatrice Seravello  22:20

And they’re trying and trying is the word trying not be adopting, trying is trying.

Marlene Gebauer  22:29

So speaking of trying, so in the process of trying to build something, you know, where did you find the partners, a firm saying, Hey, this is a very specific target? Or were they saying,

Greg Lambert  22:45

I also think, if you really feel you should do this? And you should. I love that part, because there’s a soft music going on different touching.

Brad Blickstein  22:57

I think, I think it’s probably some of both. And, you know, I’ll use it. I’ll mix my metaphors here. And as an aside, I’m years ago, I went to a Simon and Garfunkel concert, and you know, they don’t get along. But they get along well enough to have their patter on stage every 15 years or so, and collect a bunch of money from people like me. So they’re on stage. And Garfunkel says, You know, I think the whole problem in our relationship the whole time is that I always thought we should call it Garfunkel and Simon. And Paul says brilliantly in my mind, the these brilliant forwards, you should do that. And I feel like that’s the reaction of partners, I think, in a lot of cases, which is, you know, oh, we should innovate, we should do all this stuff internet where it would be great. And, you know, yes, you should do that. And I’m gonna sit here and continue to review these documents one by one. And I think that that’s so there’s a disconnect between what the firm thinks and what people sort of, would the partner sort of think. And you know, who exactly should do this and that that ties into the first quote in your little series, which is this nonspecific voice?

Beatrice Seravello  24:10

Yeah, the truth of the matter is that what we see a lot, is a willingness to embrace innovation, as long as it doesn’t touch their practice. And it’s good for them, but not necessarily for me, or our practice is very prestigious, and we don’t do that kind of thing. But what we really know is that there is no practice that cannot use some improvement. And what I think we’re trying to accomplish with this report is to say, yeah, you raise your hand, you’ve gone out there, you purchase the products, or you build the products, but now the rubber meets the road. Are you going to do it or not?

Brad Blickstein  24:55

If you want to go out and call yourself Garfunkel and Simon, I’m not going to stop you But that doesn’t mean I’m doing it. Exactly.

Greg Lambert  25:05

So and I know that you address it in the survey, but we hear these anecdotal stories about how lawyer adoption of new technology just leaves a lot to be desired. Having no tyla.

Beatrice Seravello  25:24

This is my favorite quote. So what this quote means for us for this report, is that lawyers have now accepted that all of this cannot be done without their involvement. They’re expecting a magic wand to come into their practice, and that they’re not going to have to do the tough stuff. And so is this heaven meeting? Is this going to be some magic? Or is this Iowa day to day feet on the ground held to the fire doing the work? So what we’ve come to realize is two things. One is that lawyers do not have the time to be involved in building product, or in thinking about new processes or in thinking about different steps, staffing models, nor are they incentivized to do it. So those are two pieces that are really broken. And the truth of the matter is, what we’ve also seen is when the professionals who have the roles, the responsibility of innovation in law firms, when they build things on their own, then lawyers say, Well, how can they build something on their own, they don’t know anything about the practice of law. So there’s a yin and a yang there, right. And it really does take a tenacity from the lawyers to get this stuff done. And the incentives around driving that need to also be in play in a firm.

Brad Blickstein  26:53

And, Greg, you had mentioned, sort of this conventional wisdom that adoption is difficult. And that really gets to the heart of what we were trying to do with this report was to try to put some data around what we all believe. And we did that by creating a maturity model around the adoption of new law initiatives within a firm, it’s a five point scale. One is an effort that’s stuck in the innovation team or the innovation committee. Two would be some lawyers are using the thing. Three would be some legal teams or practice groups are delivering service using the initiative for as most of the legal teams are delivering, and five is the initiative is completely pervasive through the firm. And we did this for all 10 of the initiatives that we tested for wits, and you know, please download the report, check it out, see him all, but we know generally, what we learned is that mostly twos and threes, you know, we’re there that most of these things are inching along the adoption curve. But far from fully pervasive throughout the law firm. That’s generally not happening, at least not

Greg Lambert  28:05

yet. Did you find anything in your research of this? That kind of counters that common thread of lawyers are really difficult to adopt a new technology? Or did it depend?

Beatrice Seravello  28:20

Well, I would say that there are visionaries in legal there are lawyers who are operating really in a very interesting and creative way. So it’s not that there is no lawyer out there that can do this stuff. I would say that there are few and far between. I think that what we, you know, traditionally see, is lawyers, you know, who have for many, many years practices a certain way, and are not being incentivized to look at things differently. They have a good client base, they have their, you know, team supporting them. What’s the problem? You know, I’m bringing in my revenue, I come to work, I work hard, what like why do I have to do anything differently? So and then, you know, we come across other lawyers who, you know, really bang it out of the park, and who had this vision and want to continue growing and changing and moving. But I must say that, that there are fewer of them that we’ve witnessed than the others.

Marlene Gebauer  29:23

But you know, I imagine there were some firms that saw some type of positive results from these experiments, or were they saying to themselves,

Greg Lambert  29:32

I’ve just created something totally illogical. That’s my favorite.

Beatrice Seravello  29:39

When you innovate, sometimes you do end up creating something totally illogical. And that’s what being innovative is about, right? So you have to be prepared to pivot and change. And that might be a quality that you don’t usually find in law firms that ability to sort of bite something off to be a little risk taking in in developing something. I think that both Brad I would say that there are some really great law firms doing really interesting stuff. But they’re not in the majority.

Brad Blickstein  30:08

We did include two case studies, right in the report on firms that are doing things that are doing very interesting things with pervasive adoption. One is porzio, Bromberg and Newman, which is sort of a new jersey based pharmaceutical firm that has created a subsidiary and affiliated entity, which grew out of really a client facing database around pharmaceutical compliance. And that is fully pervasive throughout the firm and fully symbiotic with the firm. So it leads that leads to other business for the firm, and brings in clients on its own. And then the other case study that we included was around cipher Sha and their caribou product, or offering, which you know, cipher shots. Interesting, really the the two case studies are a bit of a contrast, because porzio sort of saw an opportunity this is a few years ago, and sort of caught lightning in a bottle and sort of brilliantly developed something that really changed their whole firm, you know, so far, has innovation really in their DNA more than most firms do. So it’s a really good example of what happens when you, you know, for years Couldn’t you know, work to convince your partners, that innovation, that new thinking that the different processes, that process itself, is the way to go, and that makes all these anything much more adoptable? I think one of the gentlemen or one of the lawyers from South Park that we interviewed said, pointed out, I think it’s really true, everything is a process. And you know, I might have 100 steps, or I might have two steps, but everything is a process. And as soon as you realize that, the idea of applying more process and also technology to the legal function starts to make a lot more sense.

Greg Lambert  32:08

I know and I speak for I think most fans have field dreams is that we were happy that there was not a sequel to that, that there was no Field of Dreams to your report, on the other hand, will actually have a sequel. And in this one, you’re going to talk about another part of the movie where this mysterious voice in the cornfield says in this going to distance what what are you going to be covering in this topic?

Brad Blickstein  32:43

So in part one, we talked about what law firms are trying and the extent to which they are gaining adoption? If you build it, will they come? Or if you build it, to what extent are they coming? In part two, we take a look at the firms that have been more successful in driving adoption. And look at the attributes that they have that help them drive adoption, we call them effective adoption attributes. And we compare the firm’s that are better at this with the rest of the firm’s. And we talked about what it is that those firms are doing that makes them better at this it. Remember the end of the movie, the very end, there’s a scene where you can see a cars driving down a road heading to this baseball field Nirvana. And that’s kind of what we’re trying to do here is help draw that roadmap to, I guess, take you from Iowa, to heaven.

Beatrice Seravello  33:43

And I think that go the distance also means that you might have tried something and you might not have really been successful. But that doesn’t really mean that you should drop it That means you can reengage in different ways. And as Brad said, this is a roadmap for that. So go the distance means don’t be discouraged. These things are not easy. This is all about change. And going the distance these these are the things you can apply to be more successful in what you’re doing.

Greg Lambert  34:12

All right, well, Brad Blickstein and Beatrice Seravello. I’m going to borrow a another saying from a baseball great and that’s the the great Ernie Banks and say, let’s play two and you guys come back when you have your second report ready.

Marlene Gebauer  34:27

Thank you both for coming on and sharing the results.

Beatrice Seravello  34:31

Great, thank you.

Brad Blickstein  34:32

We look forward to thank you so much for having us and we absolutely look forward to being back in a month or so.

Greg Lambert  34:38

And thanks for putting up with the voices.

Brad Blickstein  34:45

that was the best part.

Greg Lambert  34:50

It was fun one doing the voice. I get to test out the sound board and some of the clips from from the movie. Really interesting way to tackle the problem of adoption of innovation in law firms.

Marlene Gebauer  35:06

Yeah, well, I mean, I think sort of couching it in this way makes it sort of really approachable and and dare I say entertaining, and that’s kind of what you need to sort of get your audience. You know, there’s there’s a lot of reports out there, and this one will will certainly catch your eye

Greg Lambert  35:22

and in true The Geek in Review fashion, it’s free,

Marlene Gebauer  35:25

it’s free and heavy on the data.

Greg Lambert  35:29

So thanks again to Brad glickstein and to Beatrice Seravello. From B+B for coming in and talking to us about a report. We will see them soon, I think with with part two.

Marlene Gebauer  35:40

Thanks for taking the time to listen to The Geek in Review podcast. If you enjoyed the show, share it with a colleague. We’d love to hear from you. So reach out to us on social media. I can be found at @gebauerm on Twitter

Greg Lambert  35:51

and I can be reached at @glambert on Twitter or you can leave us

Marlene Gebauer  35:55

a four voicemail on The Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 and as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca. Thank you Jerry.

Greg Lambert  36:05

Thanks, Jerry. All right, Marlene, I will talk to later.

Marlene Gebauer  36:24

Bye