In this episode, we welcome Laura Terrell, an executive coach at ⁠Laura Terrell, LLC⁠, with a rich and varied career history. Laura has served as a Special Assistant to President George W. Bush at the White House, a senior level appointee at the US Department of Justice, an Equity partner at two large global law firms, and in-house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm.

Laura shares her journey from being a high-profile lawyer to becoming an executive coach. She explains how her fascination with understanding the motivations and challenges of professionals led her to coaching. Laura emphasizes the importance of listening, not just to clients’ legal problems, but to their broader professional and personal concerns.

Laura provides insight into what executive coaching is, describing it as a collaborative process that supports clients in identifying their goals and working towards them. She explains that coaching can feel therapeutic, but it is not therapy. It’s about facilitating someone else’s goals and supporting their exploration of what’s important to them.

She discusses the various challenges faced by lawyers and C-level executives, including transitioning into leadership roles, building business, managing a team, and adapting to in-house roles. Laura also talks about coaching for lawyers at the start of their careers, helping them navigate the transition from theory to practice and understand the expectations of their roles.

Laura highlights the common mistake of making assumptions in the legal industry. She encourages lawyers to challenge their assumptions and be open to change, given the evolving nature of the industry.

In addition to her coaching work, Laura is the General Counsel to a nonprofit and invests in women-owned businesses. She shares her passion for supporting women and learning about different business areas.

This episode provides valuable insights into the role of executive coaching in the legal industry and how it can support professionals at all stages of their careers. Whether you’re a seasoned lawyer, a C-level executive, or a lawyer just starting out, there’s something to learn from Laura’s experiences and expertise.

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Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠
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Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Transcript⁠

Marlene Gebauer 0:07
Welcome to The Geek in Review. The podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer.

Greg Lambert 0:14
And I’m Greg Lambert. Well, it’s May, which means it’s a blazing hot summertime here in Houston. Not yet. Just feel just feels that way just

Marlene Gebauer 0:25
feels common though.

Greg Lambert 0:26
Yeah. So have you gotten out on the kayak this lately?

Marlene Gebauer 0:30
I have I got out a couple times on the kayak, basically hitting the by us and some of the creeks and the waters up. So that means it’s fast. Even even with over a small waterfall.

Greg Lambert 0:43
Nice, nice. Well done. So Well, I’m excited this week. I know we’ve done a lot of talking about things like generative AI over and over again. But I think we’re gonna take that again. Take a little bit of a breather this week and bring out a guest that we’re both really excited to talk to.

Marlene Gebauer 1:03
Yes, yes. So we’d like to welcome Laura Terrell executive coaching at Laura Terrell LLC. Laura, welcome to The Geek in Review.

Laura Terrell 1:12
Well, thanks, Marlene. And Thanks, Greg. It’s great to be with you.

Marlene Gebauer 1:15
So Laura, you have had quite a storied career, Special Assistant to President George W. Bush at the White House, senior level appointee at the US Department of Justice, Equity partner at two large global law firms. And in house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm. You’ve led hundreds of people and been a top advisor for the fortune 500 and FTSE, 100 companies. And after acquiring all this rich experience, wow, you decide, yeah, right. It’s like you decided to apply it to a career in executive coaching. What inspired you to make the change?

Laura Terrell 1:52
I have always been fascinated by talking to other professionals, a lot of lawyers, but not exclusively people in and around the legal profession. professionals that have been my clients who are non lawyers, about the things that are interesting to that motivating to them challenges that they have. I often found as a practicing attorney, at a large law firm that one of the most effective things you could do to really understand what was important to your clients was just take the time to listen. And I don’t just mean listen to their legal problems, but listen to what was bothering them about professional life generally, or life in a large complex organization, or maybe with a change in leadership, or a lack of technology or resources in the environment they were working in. And just by listening and hearing from them what was on their mind, I often felt that I learned a lot about the fabric of our professional lives. And that was really rewarding for me. But one of the things that I think we all know about working in law firm environment world is that it’s often hard to carve out that time to really have that engagement in those connections with people. And in particular, I enjoyed mentoring and working with attorneys, both who worked for me and learning from attorneys that were more seasoned than I was. And coaching gives me the opportunity to take a lot of my knowledge from different environments that I’ve worked in, and really apply it to engaging and supporting other people with the things that they’re grappling with and the goals they’re working towards. So it gives me a chance to be in many ways more of a people person I think, and more of a people engaged person, then you often have a chance to do with a large docket and a busy portfolio.

Greg Lambert 3:46
Well, this this may sound a bit basic, I guess. But can you explain what executive coaching is? Because to me, it seems like it’s a you know, it’s a little bit like therapy, it’s a little bit like mentoring. It’s a little bit like, you know, having a, you know, someone that you can vent with how when someone asks you what an executive coach is or does what what do you tell them?

Laura Terrell 4:10
It’s a great question, Greg. And I think it’s something that you hear different answers from different people. I’ll give you my view, which is start off

Greg Lambert 4:19
with with it depends.

Laura Terrell 4:23
I have to start off with it first But I think coaching and therapy and I’ll start with the broader coaching practice, coaching therapy are both collaborative. And I think they’re both focused on supporting clients, not giving them solutions or fixing problems, but helping clients identify their goals work towards those objectives, supporting them facilitating them in that, at times. I think coaching can feel like therapy. I’ve had clients say this feels like professional therapy. It can feel therapeutic. It’s not therapy. The biggest difference is licensed psychologists and psychiatrists who practice mental health therapy, emotional therapy. These are people who hold medical licenses and licenses from their state coaching is largely an unlicensed practice, although we do have certain governing bodies, including the biggest international coaching Federation, and I’m accredited by them. That difference that treatment of emotional or psychological distress illness disorders is not something that coaching does. But coaching does have a very similar relationship. As I said, it’s collaborative, it’s working together. Some people have suggested that coaching is really about looking forward, and therapy is more about looking backwards. Looking to the past. I think that’s sometimes the case, sometimes not. I mean, sometimes, even when I talk with clients about what’s motivating them, or what’s holding them back professionally, there can be things that they’ve experienced earlier in their career that give them prejudices or assumptions. And so we explore some of that in coaching. But overall, my goal as a coach is to help facilitate someone else’s goals, I don’t set the agenda, I don’t tell you what the solution is, I don’t tell you where to go. I’m really here to help support your exploration of the things that are important to you. So when clients come to me, they usually either have a goal in mind, or they have something that’s on their mind, maybe they think they need to make a transition, or they think it’s time for a change in their professional career, often at a very high level or in a high stress environment. And they’re trying to think about what that change looks like. So sometimes we’re identifying that change together. Sometimes they’re in that exploratory phase learn to have a pretty clear idea of where they want to go. Maybe it’s to make partner in a firm, make a transition out of government into private practice, or vice versa. There are things that they have a clear idea and objective about that we work through. Is that helpful to understand and a little bit?

Greg Lambert 7:00
Yeah, and one, one quick follow up? Is this something that you schedule out in advance? Or are you kind of on a, you know, as needed basis? What’s What’s the formula that you have to stay in touch with your clients?

Laura Terrell 7:15
You know, it really varies from client to client, my general mantras for clients to work at their own pace. And that means I have clients that I connect with on a weekly basis, and we talk in between maybe over email or text, maybe they send me some thoughts on something and ask for feedback. I have clients that I work with over a more extended period, maybe we meet once a month, or as they’re checking in on their milestones. And then some people that have long term goals that require a lot of strategic planning, such as working towards partnership, and a law firm can be a much longer term client over maybe the course of a couple of years.

Marlene Gebauer 7:53
So Laura, you also have some side gigs, General Counsel to a nonprofit and investing in women owned businesses. How important is it to you to have multiple business interests?

Laura Terrell 8:04
Well, I I like to think that I have a lot of different interests, including my family and personal things that I do. Focusing on women owned and women founded businesses, women led businesses has been something I did even when I was in private practice, it was something that I did for a couple of reasons. I felt like it gave me a chance to learn the business side of companies, startups, new initiatives in a way that I didn’t always see as the lawyer in the room being asked for legal advice. I was also just passionate about supporting women, and seeing them advance and being able to get funding as starters, I’ve been involved with a couple of different funds and opportunities. I also coach entrepreneurs who are looking to start businesses or looking to scale businesses. And I found that very rewarding as well.

Marlene Gebauer 8:54
Is it a variety of areas? Or do you have a particular variety of businesses.

Laura Terrell 8:58
I think I’m interested in in less the type of business than the type of entrepreneur and what their background and experiences how they come to that. I just really enjoy connecting with people and learning about a lot of things that I did not see in my particular area of practice as an attorney. A lot of startup venture capital funding, scale in series A Series B offerings, things I’ve learned a lot about through that. So it’s been an education for me. And that’s that’s been a real pleasure as well. Being a general counsel is a chance that I have for a nonprofit to do something that really resonates with me, I work with a nonprofit 501 (c)(3) that provides technology for free to foster care and child welfare professionals who are desperately in need of it to better strengthen the way they connect the way they find resources for children the way they may find family members for children to be able to be fostered or adopted by or supported in some other way. Maybe Building a network and they have wonderful software that’s been able to do this. They have other tools, including helping children to learn about trauma, and how to deal with the effects of trauma, how to make the transition also from foster care into adulthood as you age out of foster care after age 18 In most states, and I just love the mission behind this organization, the women that founded it are tremendous. They had a need for legal counsel. I couldn’t not help because I felt like this was just something that was so important. Foster Care is so broken in our country, so underfunded. And the idea of giving away technology for free, is as startling to most people as it is to the government agencies that they’re offering this to. But it’s wonderful work. It’s made a real difference. And it’s used by a number of organizations organization has connect our kids, and you can find out more about them at their website, but I just love working with them.

Greg Lambert 10:57
That’s doing good works there. My My son has three foster kids right now. And just the system itself is so hard to understand so hard to work through. So if any organization any any type of government agency needed some help. That is definitely way up on the list. It’s a good job. Let’s talk about executive coaching in the what we consider the very unique industry of law firms and legal departments. Can you talk about your experiences, coaching people like you know rainmakers at at a law firm or C level executives that you’ve worked with in the different challenges that they they tend to faced and how and why they decided to reach out to executive coaching to help them through that?

Laura Terrell 11:47
Sure. I start by talking about law firm partners and people at very senior levels. I’ve worked with people that, for example, are coming into leadership roles within their firm, maybe they’ve become the managing partner of an office. And they’re a really good really savvy lawyer with great substantive legal skills. They’re the subject matter expert you go to, they’re terrific at managing cases. They’re great with clients, but a managerial role requires different skills. It requires a dedication of their time, it requires working with a lot of folks in the office that maybe they haven’t interacted with on a regular basis in a while, including other legal professionals legal support. So that’s a challenge for a number of people moving into that leadership realm. You mentioned rainmakers, I’ve worked with partners that are trying to be rainmakers trying to build business. And this is one of those things, they don’t teach you in law school, you don’t get an instructional course, and you certainly don’t

Greg Lambert 12:43
teach it at law firms either. And they don’t.

Laura Terrell 12:47
They don’t teach you a law firms, either. And you’re told, you know, do your for your client is, you know, the partner you work for, and you’ll develop business on your own. And one day you arrive at this place where people are saying, you know, if you want to make partner or if you want to succeed in this firm, you want to bring in business. And so we talk a lot about the skills needed to build that business, what’s in different techniques are, and that there’s also not one unique size that fits all, or one unique approach, if you will, to business development. It’s varied, it’s personal. I also work with partners who’ve had a great book of business, but maybe they’ve had a setback, or a client has moved, work to a new law firm, for a variety of reasons and trying to rebuild from that, and how you make that book regenerate how you recover from setbacks. I’ve also worked with partners that have adapted to in house roles. And that’s a big challenge for us with a couple of law firm partners that have moved into pretty significant C suite roles, and suddenly realize they’re not in charge of everything anymore. People come to them as a resource. They’re a cost center. First of all, they’re not a moneymaker within their organization. They’re a cost center. And they’re viewed as a resource that will call you if we need you. And it might be in an emergency. And we might disagree with you and tell you five reasons we aren’t going to do this. This isn’t a client that’s paying you and values, the work that you’re doing because you’re dealing with other lawyers, maybe in the General Counsel’s Office, you now deal with business, people who have different priorities, different issues. That’s a real adaptations. There’s a real myriad of ways in which very senior people can benefit from coaching, and come to talk about specific topics. I also do get engaged by law firms who reach out who see perhaps that there’s a partner that has great skills, but there’s one area they’re struggling with, for example, maybe it’s in managing a team or in being able to build work effectively and understand the financial rubric that the firm operates under, spend a lot of time talking to clients about understanding the financials of law firms because again, they don’t teach you that and law school. They don’t tell you a lot about that as a lawyer but you’re expected To understand those things. So we’re

Marlene Gebauer 15:03
talking about C level executives hire and partners. How about people who are just starting their careers? So you know, how do you approach executive coaching for lawyers who are just at the start of their career? And what are some common issues that you help them navigate?

Laura Terrell 15:21
I think there are a few things for lawyers that are new to the profession. One is making the switch from being a lawyer in theory, understanding the principles, understanding the rules of evidence, understanding civil procedure, and how to structure a brief, but navigating within a new organization, and understanding what’s not only expected of you as a lawyer, but what’s expected of you as a team contributor, what’s expected of you, as somebody that is going to take charge of their own personal and professional development within the firm, or the government agency or the nonprofit that you’re working for the in house role is something that’s really foreign, and I find for new lawyers, helping them to think about how they find the resources to educate themselves and develop their careers. In the organization. They’re in getting feedback. A lot of young lawyers just out of law school. Look, they’re tremendously smart, talented people, they did very well. They’re used to getting good grades and good reviews. And they think if they’re doing a good job, that they’re doing a good job, somebody will tell them if they’re not. And a lot of environments are not that clear, particularly law firms, you need to get more nuanced feedback. How do you ask for that? How do you get it if you feel like you’re not getting the level of feedback you need? How do you seek out people that can help you learn more about the environment, which you’re operating in? And asking questions, I think sometimes there’s hesitancy to ask not questions about what do you want this brief? But what are the things I should be thinking about as a first or second year associate in a law firm? What are the skills that you see that I haven’t developed yet that I need to add to? And I find lawyers are great advocates for the their clients often, but they’re somewhat quiet sometimes about themselves and hesitant to ask, and hesitant to engage. They think, especially as young lawyers head down, do the work you’re assigned. Don’t ask a lot of questions. But that doesn’t really help you progress in your career, and it doesn’t really help you progress in your professional development.

Greg Lambert 17:35
So in your experience, what’s been some of the common mistakes that you’ve seen within law firms or the legal industry that leaders tend to make over and over again? And how do you approach that, because I’m sure the whole legal industry is is known for, you know, just being it can be overwhelming. And it can lead to depression, it can lead to bad habits and bad behaviors. And so how, how can you get ahead of that? And how does coaching you think, kind of keep the attorneys from becoming overwhelmed? Or can it,

Laura Terrell 18:18
I think, one of the most common challenges I hear, and that I talk a lot about with clients, including those in private practice in law firms is the danger of making assumptions. If I put down my phone at night, and I try to sleep without checking my emails, I can’t do that, I won’t be able to succeed, I won’t be able to function at my law firm, I have to check my phone in the middle of the night. Or I assume that my team is doing good work, because they haven’t made a huge mistake yet. And I think they’re all satisfied because nobody’s come and complained to me. Or I believe everybody wants flexibility in our office, and we’ve offered them flexibility. That’s the extent of what we need to do to be able to meet a post COVID working world, we’ve given them flexibility to work two days a week remote, the COVID has passed us. That’s what we need to do. I think, as humans, we tend to make assumptions about things. So when I hear somebody making an assumption, I don’t think that’s terrible. I think I’ve made assumptions like that. I’ve assumed that certain things are the case without asking or investigating. If you’ve got a team that you think is functional, all cylinders, because nothing’s gone wrong, and nobody’s come to you. That may be true, but it’s worth doing check ins, it’s worth talking to the team members that you work with. It’s worth finding ways to engage with them. And the same is true for senior people trying to figure out how to manage in a large organization. Don’t assume that because you’ve been working in the organization for 20 years, and that certain things have been that a certain way in the past, that you can continue to work in that regard that you can continue to work there. But you’re experiencing all kinds of change within the industry, whether that’s AI, I know you guys have talked a lot about that with a number of experts, whether that’s AI or a flexible workplace, or the challenges of working in a world where tightening budgets, working in a real estate situation where, you know, having an office and assigned office may be a thing of the past for a lot of law firms, changing the culture of how we interact. Those are big challenges. And I think people have to be open to say, I can’t just assume what’s worked well in the past, or what I have thought was the state of play is what is the state of play? And then I need to really examine that. And I often challenge those assumptions in coaching. I’m not judging people. I’m not saying that they’re wrong. But I say, Hey, I, I hear you saying something. And I just want to ask you, how do you know that? Is it possible there’s another outcome or what leads you to that conclusion? And that’s often a good starter for a broader conversation about why people are stuck in a particular place challenged by something that we’re not sure where to go next.

Greg Lambert 21:11
Yeah, and I think that kind of fits with the legal industry, as lawyers, you talked earlier about, you know, listening, and and waiting, not necessarily doing what a lawyer is, is instinctively wanting to do. And that is, oh, well, here’s the answer. I know what the answer is. And I can just, you know, there we go, we’re done. I’ve given you the answer. Let’s move on. And it seems like that I liked your statement about the trouble with making assumptions on that. And we talked a lot about change management, that almost sounds like a variation of change management it is, you know, things are not going to constantly remain the same. And what worked, you know, in 2019, is probably not going to work in 2023. So there’s a really interesting take on that. I like that.

Laura Terrell 22:00
It’s absolutely true. It is about change management, I worked with a partner that had a very successful practice in an area that’s been challenged over the last few years. And the partner said, this is the way I’ve always gotten clients to work with me, this is the way I feel the clients have valued my work. And I don’t understand why clients are not valuing that now. And we spent a number of sessions together, examining that, what was it that worked well in the past? What makes you think that isn’t working? Well. Now, what could be some other explanations for this? Have you actually talked to your client and said, I noticed you haven’t engaged me on that case? Or I noticed you guys are doing less work in the space or you’re pushing back on rates can? Can you I couldn’t ask my client. That was his response. I couldn’t ask my client that and I said, I think you’ve got to be brave enough to ask questions to know whether you’re on the right track or not. And it’s hard to make changes if you don’t know what it is that needs to be changed.

Marlene Gebauer 23:06
Yeah, sometimes getting into the uncomfortable is necessary in order to to move forward. Absolutely. So my next question sort of piggybacks on Greg’s earlier question. You have personally many varied interests. You’re an avid book reader, you travel, you cook, and I saw you clean up.

Laura Terrell 23:29
I am one of those people. Yes. Oh, my

Marlene Gebauer 23:31
God come to my house. So how important is this to your own wellness? And how do you advise busy executives to make time for their own interests? You know, how do you help lawyers who may be struggling with that work life balance, you know, especially those in demanding positions, or to find more time to balance and reduce burnout?

Laura Terrell 23:58
Well, first off, I said this for many years in private practice, and I say to clients now, I don’t think there is such a thing as a continuous work life balance every day, every part of the day is different. I have days now. I had days in private practice that were absolutely not balanced, and I had to work to try to find some balance, you have to actively look for it. And if you’re in a very challenging role, if you’re in a very large firm, and there’s a lot of demands on you, whatever your role is in the firm. You’ve got to look for ways to find that balance. And starting small is something I often recommend mentioned a few minutes ago, the the issue of attorneys that think they can’t put their phones down, they can’t stop looking at their email. They can’t go through dinner without looking just to make sure somebody hasn’t texted them. Somebody hasn’t called them somebody hasn’t emailed them. Some clients we start by just trying to do figure out, Is there a place you can carve out time? Can you take a 15 minute walk? And put the phone? Can you turn it off at night? Can you do small steps that help you think about reclaiming balance? And I often find for for many clients, that’s a good start. Because it would be a rational way to say get it just don’t pick up your phone all weekend. You don’t need to look at your email.

Marlene Gebauer 25:21
head explodes.

Laura Terrell 25:23
Crazy What do you think he I have busy clients. But I think finding ways to go out the other thing, I think that’s really important to work life balance is getting rest, getting real sleep, getting real rest and relaxation, and getting some physical activity, even if that’s just a walk, I am a big believer. And I think the scientific evidence and the research on this process, it’s important to make sure that you take care of your mind and your body, even if that’s in a small way by starting to reclaim it. And part of getting balanced is not that every day is going to be this magical utopian rainbow of balanced life. But that you can find ways to provide that balance work towards those goals. So that if you know you’re gonna have a crappy couple of weeks doing a trial, need to carve out something on the other end of that, or you need to carve out 15 minutes a day during that trial to get some downtime, even if it’s just to listen to music. Take a walk, watch a funny clip on YouTube. It’s something different for everybody else.

Greg Lambert 26:29
Be careful a tick tock though you can spend hours on that.

Laura Terrell 26:33
I’ll go down the rabbit hole now that that’s set a timer if you have to.

Greg Lambert 26:38
So can you talk to us I’m sure you’ve had clients that have kind of like yourself, although you still get your your toe in, in the practice of law. But there are going to be some people that get to a point in their life where they may want to either take a break or do something different. So how do you approach coaching for lawyers, when they may be looking at a significant career change such as moving from legal practice to taking a you know, a non legal role somewhere? And some of the challenges that they may have during that that transition? What what some of the ways that you approach that?

Laura Terrell 27:17
I like first to explore with them what’s motivating them to make this change? What is it that they think is a good reason for this change to them. And that’s not to say it’s, again, a bad reason, I just want to better understand if you told me, you want to leave the practice of law and you’d like to be owning a bookstore or being a private chef or an Indy 500 car driver, I fully believe that’s something you want to do, I want to just understand why it is and what you think will be different. Why you want that difference. I sometimes find that when people have an idea of what they want to do, they don’t really have yet an understanding of how that would work. In a practical respect. It’s a little bit like making a transition from working full time to full time retirement. And I do have clients that are in that transition phase of their careers. And exploring what that might look like, what would your day look like? What would you do during the day as you were retired? Or as you were a bookstore owner? Or a chef? How would you go about that? What’s motivating, but what do you know about owning a business as if you’re going to be the restaurant owner or the bookstore owner? What do you know about, you know, how much time you’d want to spend each day on this? Or that? And who do you know that? Does that? Have you talked to them? Do you Do you know how they have fared in that because I find often whether it’s moving from being a practicing lawyer to something else, using your legal and your non legal skills, or just moving to another area of law or another type of practice. People have, again, assumptions and ideas about things. But I think it’s really important to spend a little time to explore and even if that’s spending some time with a client in house, if you’re thinking about moving in house, and asking them, what their day is like what the challenges are, what the stresses are, it’s critical to have an understanding of what your goal is and what you’re moving towards. I think lawyers want to be definitive, as you say they want to give a solution. They want to say I have the answer. And the answer is, this is what I want to do. But sometimes it takes a little more self exploration and giving yourself a little more time and permission to look at what might be there. And it might be that you’re looking at being a bookstore owner. But really, you don’t want the business side of the ownership. You want to be interactive with customers or you want to be able to be reading the books, maybe editing or writing or something else is a better fit. But finding that is really critical.

Marlene Gebauer 29:42
So Laura, now’s the part where we ask all of our guests to look into their crystal ball and tell us some changes or challenges they see over the next two to five years. So what do you see in your crystal ball?

Laura Terrell 29:54
Gosh, there is so much I think first of all, I wish I could go back and my crystal ball a few years and tell you that there was going to be COVID Time Machine, which I got this time machine in the other direction. I think a couple of things come to mind. You all have talked about many of them, I think, for the legal industry COVID and remote work and work from home have really changed the legal industries approach to technology. It’s been an industry that’s been historically behind I think others in developing the tools that are necessary, and frankly, can be leveraged to greater success and greater benefit for both individual attorneys and their organizations. I think technology will continue to evolve pretty substantially for the legal industry. AI is certainly a huge part of that I think a lot of law firms are going to need to grapple with some, maybe some unintended or an unexpected consequence of AI, one of which is trying to figure out how you train young lawyers and young professionals in firms, paralegals, legal assistants, as well, to be able to understand how do you leverage this without having it become something that is replacing you in your role, or something that is dangerous to us, because you’re using somebody else’s words or it’s thinking of ChatGPT? Here, you’re using somebody else’s creation. And I think, really the education of lawyers on technology, and advances is going to continue to be critical. I also think there is another wave of change coming in terms of the financial structure, the metrics that law firms look to, for private practice. We’ve seen this before, in times of crisis, whether it’s been the internet bust or the 2008 financial crisis, whenever there’s a significant economic shift like we’ve gone through for the last few years and the potential for economic recession now. firms have to adapt. And that means lawyers also needing to adapt and really needing to understand the sands may be shifting that may be fewer Equity partners that may be more opportunities for contract attorneys, different pads for professionals to move through organizations, hybrid roles, shared work roles, which is something that law firms have historically not adopted, but are more prevalent, for example, in the in house world. So I think a lot of things that are also going to be driven by generationally younger attorneys, Gen Z coming into the workforce and asking for not just more flexibility, but a different way of working. If you look at the numbers, I know you had a nice chat with Jeff Lowe and some others about the the compensation and the the changes for partners and practices as well as attorneys are one of the things that you’ve heard from them was they were saying, you know, people are working more remote. And that’s not just young attorneys, but older. In generation older and experienced attorneys are saying I realize I don’t need to be in the office anymore. What does that mean for the culture of law firms? What does that mean for how we interact with each other. So I see a lot of that leading to more change, leading to the need for the legal industry to be more adaptive, and more attuned to those issues, and it’s been in the past.

Greg Lambert 33:19
I think that’s a pretty good projection there. So, Laura Terrell executive coaching at Laura Terrell LLC, I want to thank you very much for taking the time to come in and talk with us today. This has been been very educational.

Laura Terrell 33:34
It’s been a pleasure. Thank you both. I’m a big fan of the podcast, so it’s a delight to be a guest.

Greg Lambert 33:39
And while Marlene is chasing her dog, I want to thank all the listeners for taking the time to listen to The Geek in Review, podcast as well. If you enjoy the show, go ahead and share it with a colleague. We’d love to hear from you. So reach out to us on social media. Marlene, where can you be found on social media? Can you get between the dog

Marlene Gebauer 34:00
maybe I can be found at gave our M on on Twitter,

Greg Lambert 34:04
And I can be reached @glambert on Twitter. Well, Georgie is barking Laura, how about you? Where can people reach out to find out more about you?

Laura Terrell 34:14
You could find me more mostly on my website, Laura terrell.com la ura te r r e l l. I’m also on Instagram at Laura Terrell coaching. And on LinkedIn of course so happy to connect in any of those places.

Greg Lambert 34:27
And listeners can also reach out to us via voicemail on our kijken review Hotline at 713-487-7821. And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca Thanks, Jerry. Go ahead Marlene. Go ahead. We’ll do a little background

Marlene Gebauer 34:49
it’s gonna be our cold open

Greg Lambert 34:54
All right. Bye Georgie.

Marlene Gebauer 35:06
Hey Hey welcome back to back devils backbone. Devils back