This week, we have a lively discussion with June Liebert and Cornell Winston, President and President-Elect, respectively, for the American Association of Law Libraries (AALL). The conversation centers around the upcoming AALL annual conference, scheduled for July 20-23, 2024, at the Hyatt Regency in Chicago. 

June Liebert, Director of Information Services at O’Melveny & Myers LLP, kicks off the discussion by diving into the conference theme. She emphasizes the importance of librarians taking proactive leadership roles, particularly in the context of the rapidly evolving landscape influenced by Generative AI. June highlights the concept of “innovation intermediaries,” individuals who not only generate innovative ideas but also ensure these ideas are implemented effectively. This theme resonates with the need for transformative thinking, urging librarians to embrace significant changes rather than settling for incremental improvements.

This year’s keynote speaker is Cory Doctorow, a renowned sci-fi author and advocate for digital rights, Doctorow’s presence promises to bring a unique perspective on the intersection of technology and societal impact. June shares her enthusiasm for Doctorow, whose work with the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and writings on “enshittification” – the degradation of online platforms over time – provide critical insights into the ethical implications of technological advancements. Doctorow’s focus on the human impact of technology, rather than just the technology itself, offers valuable reflections for the legal information profession.

Cornell Winston, law librarian at the United States Attorney’s Office, provides a comprehensive overview of what attendees can expect from the conference. With over 60 educational programs, including a pre-conference workshop on AI strategy, the event promises rich learning opportunities. Cornell underscores the value of networking and connecting with peers, highlighting the inclusive environment fostered by the Host Program for first-time attendees. His advice to explore sessions outside one’s usual domain and to meet new people each day encapsulates the spirit of professional growth and community building.

As the conversation unfolds, the trio touches on the broader theme of innovation and technology within law libraries. June and Cornell discuss the shift from physical books to digital resources, reflecting on how generative AI and other technologies are reshaping the profession. June mentions the implementation of live closed captioning for sessions, a first for the conference, enhancing accessibility and providing real-time transcripts for attendees.

June shares her experiences as the first Asian American president of the association, highlighting her efforts to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion. Cornell, looking ahead to his presidency, discusses plans to review AALL’s governance structure and explore the future of law libraries in an increasingly digital world. The episode wraps up with a preview of the 2024 conference in Portland, Oregon, promising another enriching experience for the legal information community.

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Greg Lambert 0:07
Welcome to The Geek in Review, a podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Greg Lambert and I’m running solo this week as Marlene is sitting on a beach somewhere in Hawaii this week, so she gets a well earned vacation. But on this episode, we have two of my favorite people on the show to talk about the upcoming American Association of law libraries or WWL annual conference which is being held July 20, through the 23rd at the Hyatt Regency in Chicago. So we have June Liebert, who’s Director of Information Services at O’Melveny Myers LLP, and is the current president of AALL. And along with June, we have Cornell Winston, law librarian at the United States Attorney’s Office in beautiful Southern California, and President Elect of AALL. So thank you both for joining me and talking about the conference. June and Cornell, welcome to The Geek in Review.

June Liebert 1:05
Thank you very much. Thanks for inviting.

Greg Lambert 1:08
My pleasure. So well, June, the theme this year is Lead, Innovate, Transform. So let me let me just throw those three words at you and tell me how does that play? How does that theme play into this year’s conference.

June Liebert 1:29
Well, the main goal behind it was to encourage people to actually take a proactive stance when it comes to whatever is going on in their office. And in particular, you know, all of this generative AI stuff completely changed the landscape, I think of what we do, it certainly has completely changed my job. I know it’s completely changed yours, Greg. But it, you know, it’s funny, because we now have this opportunity to take a leadership role in an area that traditionally might be seen as more IT. And I love that, you know, it’s it’s much more about content, right? It’s what’s more about the content, rather than the mechanics of making something work, which is more of an IT focus. And so, for me, I love this idea of, you know, taking a leadership role. I love the word innovate, because, and yes, it’s a little overused. But there’s this idea of innovation intermediaries. And it’s this idea that a lot of places will have great ideas, and they innovate, but then they don’t carry it through. And so this idea, you know, an intermediary is somebody who can kind of carry the ball forward. And I love that I think that’s really an important part of what we do as librarians is that we actually make it happen. So yes, we may have this great idea. And we do great ideas, but we also make sure that it actually happens, which is the difficult part of innovation, right? A lot of innovative ideas never happened, because nobody carries it forward. And I think that’s a great role for us. And then the last word, transform, right? So it’s not just about making things, improving things, and incremental, small amounts. This is about completely changing how we think about things, how we approach things. And again, generative AI is a perfect example of that is that it could potentially really transform how we do our work. And I love that. So that’s the three words.

Greg Lambert 3:41
All right, well, I love the How did you phrase it? Innovation Intermediaries,. Okay. Yeah, it reminds me of the the old story I forget who told me it’s like, it’s one thing to get your ducks all in a row. But it’s another thing to kick the last duck in the butt to get them all into the lake.

So well, June was talking about the the keynote. You got Cory Doctorow is keynote. So talk to us a little bit about what drew Cory Doctorow to you and what, what the what folks should expect from him.

June Liebert 4:29
So the funny story is that I actually have been a big fan of Cory Doctorow for a long time because I am a sci fi geek. I love science fiction. I used to read a whole lot of it. And one of my favorite books is his book called Little brother. And his books are fantastic. He, he’s very prolific. So I’ve been a big fan of his sci fi books for some time, and I he first came on my radar because one of the first things I did as a librarian was I volunteered for the scalp newsletter committee. So the Southern California Association law libraries, the newsletter committee, and one of the things I got to do as part of that was interviewed John Perry Barlow, who was one of the cofounders of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the EFF. And Cory is very, and that’s really how I connected the two names is that, you know, I started getting interested in what the EFF was doing. And they were really, this was back in the 80s, when the internet, you know, the web was still a pretty new concept. And there were no regulations at all. Nobody knew what to do with it. And the E FF really stepped up and said, Hey, maybe you should have some rules around this, that actually protect things like privacy. So they really stepped in and did a lot of, of this work that is so critical to how we operate today with the internet, and Cory was involved with a lot of that. And so that’s how I first even found his book, because I was looking him up and I thought, Oh, hey, this sounds like a genre that I would really like. And I and I did. So I’ve been a big fan of his for some time. And he’s done some really amazing work with. He just did a whole, he just did a whole article in the Financial Times about something called Enshittification. And it’s really all about how, you know, these companies start out and they they mean, well, these technology companies, especially they meanwhile, they want to save the world. And then they realize maybe they should make money. And then they really start focusing on the making money. And then it’s all about the money and then the project goes downhill. And so it’s really an interesting process. And so if you want to hear more about it, I would absolutely read that article is really good.

Greg Lambert 6:57
Yeah, I scan that. And it talked about kind of the, the way the web in the web pages are degrading over time. And so it’s really interesting, because we see it, but sometimes we don’t step back and really think about well, you know, 10 years ago, this was really good. And now it’s yeah, kind of really degraded. That’d be interesting.

June Liebert 6:57
And that’s a thing. So while I brought him in, because he does talk about technology, it’s interesting, his focus is really about the impact of, of the technologies on people. So you know, are we all going to have jobs? Is this a good thing? Should we be using this technology? And he asks these really interesting questions. It’s not about the technology itself. It’s all about the impact of it. And these are important questions. And I think, especially for me, I tend to focus on Ooh, that’s a really cool technology. And I, it really forces me to think about what what’s the impact of this long term for all of us? What does it mean to our society? And these are really important questions to ask.

Greg Lambert 8:09
Yeah, well, I’m looking forward to that. So Cornell, I’m going to I’m going to give you the hard technical question. And that is, you know, what, what is it that the attendees should expect this year from from the conference, including, I’ve seen a number of pre conference activities as well. So do you mind breaking that down for us?

Cornell Winston 8:31
You know, I’ll say they should expect a wonderful conference. AALL produces, in my opinion, really the best conference for librarians. So there are 60, some educational programs, there’s those there’s a workshop, there’s a wonderful workshop on AI that individuals can attend. Most of all, though, it’s like this is a way that we can connect and recharge with one another. The good thing about being in Chicago at the Hyatt we’re all in one space. So the hotel is there, the meeting space is there. So you can engage with your colleagues. There’ll be great programs. There’s many other things the Annual Meeting program chair, Saskia Mehlhorn. She has and her committee have created fabulous programs that really affect law librarians in academic settings, in government settings, and private law firms so it reaches to everybody guaranteed. There will be something for everyone. And at the end of the conference ends as when you leave Chicago on Tuesday. You will be satisfied that you have come and you have invested your time in growing are in your profession. So I’m looking forward to getting there.

Greg Lambert 10:03
Good. Well, I’ve got a question for both of you. And I started counting, and I ran out of fingers and toes. So I think this is my 25th. Conference, DC and 99 was my first. And so 25 or 26, depending on how you count it. But for someone that this might be their first conference, what’s some advice that you would give them on how to approach the conference and get the best return for their time at assessment there?

Cornell Winston 10:38
Well, I’ll say, I think I’m the old person here.

Greg Lambert 10:42
I let you I’ll let you take that credit.

Cornell Winston 10:46
Yes, yes. My first meeting was 1992, in San Francisco. So this will be I think, my 32nd. well, 31st. Because I did miss one meeting, I did miss the 2014 meeting. But several years ago, I was asked to be a speaker at CONELL. And the one thing I’ll say is CONELL is the Conference of Newer law librarians. And it’s for first time attendees, people who are new to the profession. And I always said, there are a couple of good pieces of advice I’ve been, I gave, and I still use even after 30 plus years. Number one is, if you’re new to the profession, new to the association, attend CONELL, it’s Saturday morning, and it is a wonderful investment that you can make understand the association. But a couple things I would say is to attend a program outside of your normal realm. So if you’re like me, if I’m a government librarian, you know, attend something that may be geared toward the academic setting. And the other thing I’ll say is meet five new people. It’s amazing. If you just sit next to somebody at a program and turn it say, Hi, my name is Cornell, I’m with the US Attorney’s Office, where are you from? It’s amazing, the relationships that are built, so attend to program outside your area, meet five new people every day, while you go through the exhibit hall, even if it’s something that you can say, oh, you know, my organization won’t use that. No, go to the exhibit, see what’s out there. Because I’m amazed that things that I thought of, oh, we’ll never use that is things that we use today. So you know, take every opportunity to broaden your perspective about librarianship. And that’s one thing that meeting does.

Greg Lambert 12:50
June, anything to add to Cornell’s wise words?

June Liebert 12:55
fantastic advice. And the one thing that is new as of I think last year is we now have something called the Host Program. So what people can do if if this is your first time to the conference, you can sign up to join the Host Program. And they the, we will assign a mentor to you for the conference. And there’s a really fun activity. There’s like a two hour program on Saturday before the conference. And it’s, it’s really fun, it’s kind of a get to know you, they play a lot of really fun games, and I’m somebody who normally hates that kind of stuff. I cringe when I usually hear those kinds of things. But this was really fun. And it’s, so I highly recommend that and that, but I think Cornell gave the best advice, you know, talk to people it’s like, that’s the whole point of this. Because otherwise, we could all just sit in our rooms in our homes and join virtually, you know, we found that the virtual conference just doesn’t provide the same kind of networking, which is really one of the best reasons to go. So if you’re new, you don’t know anyone, introduce yourself, or someone will introduce themselves to you. That’s the other thing that might happen.

Greg Lambert 14:15
Yep. Well, I know the one of the things that I thought was one of our best kept secrets, and unfortunately, it was a secret for many years. But, you know, for many of the listeners of this podcast, you know, they really look at innovation, and they’re looking for innovation and legal tech conversations. And I think Bob Ambrogi a couple of years ago, kind of kind of nailed it when he said that, you know, every year AALL is really a solid innovation and legal tech rich conference, as well. So people think it’s, you know, it’s I don’t know what they think the librarians go around shelving books, I guess. So, do you mind and just talking about what what do you think that you know, the presentations that are set up and even the vendors that come to the conference? You know, what do they bring beyond what people would think library but actually bring for innovation and technology as well?

June Liebert 15:16
Well, there’s a lot in terms of innovation. And I think it’s because so much of what we do as librarians today has nothing to do with a book on a shelf, you know, in the library I work in, we’re literally in our main office, we’re down to five bookcases. That’s it, there are no more books. And it’s, it’s almost kind of surprising, even to me. But again, everything we do is online these days. So of course, technology plays such a big role in everything we do. So you know, we have something like over 60 educational programs at the conference, they really run the gamut. A lot of them are about generative AI, there’s one that’s actually I’m kind of very interested in, it’s all about the elections and the impact of generative AI on the upcoming presidential elections, for example. And, and then, you know, there are also programs about non AI stuff like how to manage neuro diverse staff. So Diversity is also a very big issue for us that we’re interested in. So it’s, I think it’ll be a really exciting program, in fact, this year, because of demand from our attendees in the past, we’ve actually marked on our program, all the programs that have to do with technology. So everything’s has a little orange tag of some sort, that will show you which ones are more technology focused. And for those people who don’t want that you could ignore those. Thinking, Well, if that those are the ones to probably look at. As Cornell mentioned, we do have for pre conference workshops. They’re all we have very strong attendance already for all four. The one I personally was driving was the Gen AI one. And what’s interesting about this one is it’s much more focused on strategy. It’s not a how to use Gen AI. So we we just had a whole, but we’re in the middle of some webinars on how to use Gen AI. But this is really more about strategy. How do you how do you pay for it? How do you count the ROI? You know, these are all really important questions.

Greg Lambert 17:39
Yeah, then I know that’s a it’s a big topic in the last few weeks is, yeah, what are the benchmarks? What? How do you tell the ROI? How do you make sure that you’re solving problems and not just bringing in technology for technology’s sake? So it’s good, good to have that conversation continue?

June Liebert 17:58
Yeah, in fact, something because my, this just my, you know, my personal experience was that at our law firm, you know, we rolled out AI Gen AI, a little while ago, and we’ve been doing surveys of all of our users, and we’re finding, you know, it’s about 75-80% of the people who are responding to the survey have found Gen AI to be actually very useful. For time saving, and also for improving the quality of their answers. It’s just, you know, pretty high. And yes, you know, we do a lot of work in terms of kind of getting people understand that, yes, pretty much all generative AI hallucinates. And as long as you understand that, and you accept that, then it can be, you know, what human is 100% perfect? So I can look at it that way. And so I think there’s a lot of potential there, which is why we have so much interest in Gen AI at our conference. But, you know, one thing I also wanted to mention, new this year. So one thing we’ve always done is we have always recorded, we’ve always done audio recordings of all the sessions that we’re allowed to record. And then we make them available for free to all of our members afterwards. And I’m always surprised not everybody seems to know this, but it is available for free. We’re adding something new this year, which is we are adding live closed captioning for the first time. So you can Yeah, and you know, I personally am hard of hearing. So I have difficulty. And so for me, this is going to be fantastic. So I can actually sit in a session, you log in and I will actually be able to see the closed captioning on my phone. Oh, yeah. And that’ll give us a transcript of all the sessions afterwards too. So I think this will be a really valuable tool for all of us. Old fogies with hearing problems. So I’m personally very excited about that one. But it’s new this year.

Greg Lambert 20:09
And I think Cornell, you touched on something earlier that I want to, I want to pull into this part of the conversation as well, in that, how, how certain scopes normally we have the three pillars of librarians, we have the academics, we have the private law firm, and the government librarians as well. And we all kind of think the technology is kind of equal across every, you know, technology makes it all equal. And, and I would say, you know, you’re having to use your phone for this recording right now, because not all technology is equal. So I always think that it’s really interesting to get, say, a government librarians view of what kind of barriers they have. And then because everyone kind of has their own sets of barriers, and it really kind of gives you a fresh perspective, do you? Do you find that as well, when you’re in the sessions?

Cornell Winston 21:10
Oh, I find that so true. You know, I always say, I work for the largest law firm in the world, except we only have one client, and he’s very cheap. And so

Greg Lambert 21:24
Everybody’s uncle,

Cornell Winston 21:26
Everybody’s uncle, he’s the cheapest man ever. But we have to be innovative. And one of the things I like about our meeting, is that you can go see what other people are using, and bring those suggestions into your office. I know in many cases, I’ve talked to county law library, especially those with smaller counties, you know, you think, Oh, yes, we all have everything, all together? No, some of those smaller counties, they don’t have the budget for that. They don’t have the the resources for that. And so sometimes you have to look at workarounds, you have to see oh, what is something that’s out there that we could tap into, that we don’t know about? And so you know, those things, when you were talking about AI, and like ChatGPT, things like that. Here in the federal government, I can’t tap into that yet, because it hasn’t passed our security features here at the DOJ. And so those things that I have to use, I have to you go home and use on my personal computer, and it’s like, okay, that, you know, but you know, those things that we all have to deal with those technology issues that we all have to deal with, you know, you’ve seen what others are dealing with. And the great thing about it, if you’re a little behind, you’ll probably meet somebody who was at that stage a couple of years ago, and they’ll say, oh, be sure to watch out for this, this and that, because you want to make sure this this and that is taken care of. And that’ll make your life a whole lot easier.

Greg Lambert 23:07
Yeah. And that. And that’s one of the things that I think, really benefits about this community is it’s really open to share experiences with each other. And there’s just huge value in that. Well, June lets you you’re going to be wrapping up your presidential year. And I’m sure that you know, as as it did me, you’re very sad that that wraps up because Ron Wheeler actually gave me not advice, but kind of a warning that as soon as the gavel falls, and you’re no longer the president, no one wants to talk to you anymore. So that could be a good thing or bad thing. But it’s it was definitely gonna, your years gonna slow down. Looking back, how, you know, kind of what accomplishments or you know, what have you enjoyed about leading the organization this year?

June Liebert 24:09
I think the best part has just been getting to know people. And you know, I’ve done a lot of traveling and speaking on behalf of AALL. And I think that aspect of it, making the connections has been the best part. And I’m surprised by that, because I, I’m, I’m actually a bit of an introvert. So I’m kind of surprised I’m even saying that, but it has been a lot of fun. And in terms of where, you know, when I first started, it’s interesting there like two things. So one, because I’m the first Asian American president in 118 years for this, this organization that this idea of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion has been really important to me. And so one of the things I did was I set up a special committee called it’s all about inclusion within AALL. So the idea was to try and be more inclusive of everyone, regardless of you know, and I’m not just focused on race, I’m talking about all kinds of inclusion. And so that has been really great. They had a coffee chat couple months ago, which was really good. And they collected a lot of great ideas from everybody who joined. And they’re going to be issuing a report on ways we can, well, I’m going to say Cornell, can implement new ideas for next year. And create new opportunities. So that’s been a big part of it. You know, I also we did a, I brought in a O’Melveny’s Diversity Director, and she did a great program is called improving belonging through inclusive language. So it was all about being aware of the language that you use, and even simple things like on your website, if you at O’Melveny we had on our intranet, we had some words that said, you know, if you want to learn more see this. And well see is a very specific word, and, and so is still inclusive, if you’re not somebody who can see it. So these are the questions that it’s really raised. And so I, I personally have really had to rethink some of the language that I use. And so it’s been very helpful. The small things matter. Yeah,

Greg Lambert 26:36
They do don’t they?

June Liebert 26:41
But then the second thing, of course, is, as you know, I’m really into advocacy for for librarians. And so I, you know, the funny thing is, when I first started, I was getting requests, because people kept saying, well, Generative AI is here, and are you are librarians going to exist? Are we going to have jobs in that?

Greg Lambert 27:05
Here we go again.

June Liebert 27:06
Exactly. And it was so funny, because I could think Well, of course, we’re going to exists. And And now, you know now, because you all of us have been out including you, right? We’ve all been out talking about how librarians can really help the use in utilise generative AI, that we’re a partner in this process that I think the whole conversation is completely changed. So that, you know, much of what I’m doing now is like, Well, and, you know, if you’re gonna do that, librarians are really good at this. So that’s what I’ve been spending a lot of time doing. And I love that you know that we now have a voice in this process. We’re not just being shoved aside which we were a year ago.

Greg Lambert 27:54
Yes, definitely. Definitely. So well, congrats. I know, you still got a little bit of time left on there. But it sounds like you’re already delegating some of those things to to the next president. So Cornell, anything on the agenda for next year that you want to talk about?

Cornell Winston 28:16
Well, you know, I will say, we want to make sure that I know the the AI special committee that June created. Quite frankly, I don’t think it’s going to sunset at the end of the meeting. And so, you know, I always say those things, I think it’s still appropriate to be going on. Some of the things I’ve know next year, that we’re going to have to look at is our governance structure. AALL is 118 years old. And the way we did things in 1906, some of those governance rules that we put in, they may not be quite as appropriate for 2024 and beyond. So looking at some of those things. And I’m also looking at, you know, what does the library of the future look like? You know, June said her library is down to a few shelves. Mine is down to a few shelves, those things that are electronic. How do we how do we integrate what we used to do with how we can do it now? And even dealing with so many of our attorneys that work at home, that telework. How do we service people that, you know, I I’m from the time that you could walk the halls and you could see everybody and they’ll see you or then say, Oh, I got a question. You know, virtually you can’t walk the hall. So how do you make sure that you stay relevant because sometimes I think, out of sight out of mind and we don’t want to be out of sight? Because if we’re out of sight, I think we will be out of mind in some of our institutions. So that’s one of the things that may be lucky yet come next term.

Greg Lambert 30:14
All right, well in and finally, one of the things I know a lot of people are really excited about this, cuz it’s been a while since we’ve been out in the Pacific Time Zone. And next year’s meeting is going to be in beautiful and a little unique Portland, Oregon. I love Portland. So Cornell, you want to want to talk to us about some of the plans you may have for Portland?

Cornell Winston 30:40
Well, Portland is going to be a wonderful spot. I was there in April last month for a site visit just to make sure what things look like. I was there in 2008 when our meeting was in Portland, and it was a wonderful, wonderful city. Yes, the last time we were on the west coast of the Pacific timezone was in 2013. We were in Seattle. We looked at the our meeting spot, the Oregon Convention Center, which is directly across the street, from the Hyatt Regency Hotel, that’s the headquarters hotel, there’s another hotel across the street, from the convention center. So so now

Greg Lambert 31:23
we’re taking the train where you had to train from the hotel, or is that

Cornell Winston 31:27
Yes, we have to take the train. But there will be a hotel on the other side of the river, but the train will be free. And quite frankly, one of the things that we find out, especially as the government library, sometimes our hotel costs have been prohibitive to to some of our members. So we have some rooms across the hotel that are much cheaper. It’s a Hilton property. So it’s not, you know, it’s not a property that you got to have to say, I’m a little scared to go there. No, it’s the Hilton property. You’ll be able to take the train over and they will be free for the trade if you’re staying across the river, but there’s just so many things in Portland, I’ve just got to ask in advance. For librarians, please do not spend most of your time and Powell Books, or at Voodoo Donuts. We want to come back with our waste intact. And that over over stuff our suitcases so we don’t have to pay extra for Oh, baggage that weighs a little bit too much. But I am looking forward to Portland. It’s a beautiful city that time of year. The weather is normally really, really nice. It’s a lot of things to do there. We’re going to do a lot of our few innovative things that I’ll save for a little later. But if you can’t make it to Chicago, which I hope you will, there’s still time to make it to Chicago. Mark your calendar for for Portland in 2025. It will be a good a marvelous experience for everyone.

Greg Lambert 33:14
And both of them knock on wood here. The weather should should be okay. It’s it’s gotta be a lot better than having it in San Antonio are are one of the hot cities. So we’ll hope for that. No promises though. Well, June Liebert and Cornell Winston, I want to thank both of you for taking the time to talk with me about the upcoming AALL annual conference in Chicago. Again, that is July 20 through the 23rd. Where can listeners go if if they want to learn more June

June Liebert 33:54
the AALL net website so A L L N E T dot ORG.

Greg Lambert 34:01
All right. Well, thank you both for being on here.

Cornell Winston 34:03
Thank you for having us.

June Liebert 34:05
Thank you. Always fun, Greg.

Greg Lambert 34:08
And of course thanks to all the listeners for taking the time to listen to The Geek in Review podcast. If you enjoy the show, please share it with a colleague. We’d also love to hear from you so reach out to us on social media. The best place for Marlene and I is probably on LinkedIn. So feel free to reach out to us there. And as always, the music that you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca. Thanks Jerry.